Forgiveness/the Death Plenty

[Malcolm Belmont]

This is probably going to cause a lot of dissagrements but here's it goes. I do not believe in the Death Plenty and i also believe that prisons should focus on reforming the criminal rather than executing them. For those who don't know i have studied Religious Education (Trust me..it's not just about Jesus but about the Big Bang Theory, Kantianism, Scientific Method etc) and one of the recent topics my Teacher Mr Mackintosh talked about was Crime and Punishment. We looked and the death plenty and why America still keeps the death plenty. Frankly all the people in my class were horrified about the American System. We all agreed that the death plenty should not be allowed. I know many people would argue that a system that focuses on Punishment is the right way to go..however i dissagre. Well from studies it has been proven that the Norway system has been far more effective at stopping crime that Amercia. I know they are two different countries but still from the evidence i have learned from the Death Plenty Course of Religious Studies..honestly the death plenty does not decrease crime. I want to talk about one more thing: Forgiveness. I personally believe in forgiveness..let me tell you about a real life story. My Religious Studies Teacher Mr Mackintosh was walk from church to his house and got stabbed by a drunk mugger. Mr Mackintosh managed to escape and the mugger got arrested. That mugger reformed himself and went to Mr Mackintosh's house and Mr Mackintosh forgave him for the sin he committed due his personal beliefs and now the two are good friends and that mugger even came to our school to talk about his experiences. I know you may dissagre but..in my opinion..it is much harder to forgive someone than to feel anger to someone..and always take the harder path.

[Dementedvillian]

I'm with you for the whole, "Take away the death penalty" thing, but for different reasons than you. Mainly, financial reasons. It's too expensive to kill prisoners, and people shouldn't have to waste money on things that don't work.

[theotaku143110]

I rather kill people who get arrested for a crime 3 times because it's likely they'll come back. Also I still want to keep the death penalty.

[draftsman]

Well, you see, there are a lot of cases where the culprits are lost causes, wether is by psychotic nature or other similar conditions where they don't have any remorse for killing others, or damaging them in any way. There are just so much instances where you can't expect to reform the criminal and the best thing to do is encage him/her to avoid him damaging others. I'm not sure I'm in favor of the death penalty, but i can see why such measures exist.

[Excalibur Tenno]

Basically, what otaku and draftsman said, if they can't reform, they're better off dead.

[Mermaid Amy]

I don't approve of death penalty either. It's easy to want see a killer put to death, but that just makes you a killer too. Usually Mercy is greater than Justice. To spare the life of a killer is a noble, but possibly foolish thing, but still someone somewhere might care about them and they might have a family too.

Now, there are some situations that I can think of where I become unsure of my morality on the issues. Many serious criminals have serious issues that they should get help for, and it's often our society's fault for causing external problems that become dangerous with people who have internal issues... but, what about those who... just like to do evil things just because they like doing it? This is where I don't know anymore.

I'd try get facts as best possible and try to determine reasoning as best as possible before jumping on the death penalty. How do you prove that a person is truly worthy of being sentenced to death? You aren't them, you don't know why they did what they did. Judging too hastily is bad.

[SteaminFeline56]

I think if a criminal is in for life, they should have the choice to be killed. I wasn't really brought up that religious, though I'm going to see the Pope tommorrow, long story for another time, but my parents made sure I knew the Golden Rule: Treat others how you wish to be treated. So, we should at least give criminals a choice of their faith if they are going to be severely punished. That's what I would want.

[Mermaid Amy]

That makes some sense to me. I agree with treat other as you wish to be treated.

I think the best solution, may unfortunately be just to strictly limit when the death penalty can be ordered and not just allow it for any serious crime.

[clownboss]

There is a story I read somewhere about a man who murdered his wife.

When declared guilty, instead of being put to prison or anything, he was instead forced to stand by a road for a week, wearing a big sign that simply read "I am a murderer who killed his wife and this is my punishment", just standing there for all the passer-bys to read. After he served his week-long sentence, he described his experience as absolutely hellish because of the slags he's recieved from people.

This kind of unusual punishment is actually effective, and weirdly constructive in a way. It's imho great rehabilitation, but when you're dealing with a lost cause, put him in an asylum or fry him.

[protagonist]

In general, I'm in favor of the death penalty for five crimes (namely, premeditated murder, multiple accounts of non-premeditated murder, rape, organizing a violent intercity crime ring or terror cell, and treason), on the condition that there is utterly no shadow of reasonable doubt.

As for jails being places of rehabilitation, that makes sense for /some/ crimes. It's worth keeping in mind that the biblical Saul/Paul is an exception, not a rule. I understand that sometimes people fall on hard times and turn to crime. That's understandable. But, unfortunately, criminals cannot be forced to turn good, and many criminals simply don't want to. All you can do is offer an addict treatment and a thief financial advice. Short of that, there's nothing you can do.

[Mermaid Amy]

Still, it's better to find out what help people need and make it more readily available and more affordable for people who need it. No matter how many criminals you kill for a crime, the crime itself will live on as long as there's still a person who might commit that crime.

[protagonist]

That's reasonable (In fact I'd even say we're in agreement), though it's worth keeping in mind that it's entirely impossible to erase any crime in its entirety. You just have to limit it.

[Mermaid Amy]

The best way to limit it in my opinion is provide help to those in danger of resorting to criminal acts. Also deal with the real criminal, our corrupted society.

[Not The Water Waka]

Feb 17, 2014 12:11:04 GMT -8 Dementedvillian said:

I'm with you for the whole, "Take away the death penalty" thing, but for different reasons than you. Mainly, financial reasons. It's too expensive to kill prisoners, and people shouldn't have to waste money on things that don't work.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[protagonist]

Feb 21, 2014 15:38:27 GMT -8 Mermaid Amy said:

The best way to limit it in my opinion is provide help to those in danger of resorting to criminal acts. Also deal with the real criminal, our corrupted society.

The problem is that in order to do that, you need to answer these questions:
1. What does 'help' mean here?
2. At who's expense is the help provided?
3. Why would the people you're seeking to help want your help in the first place?


As for 'our corrupt society', you can't just say "society is bad". You have to suggest a better, more sustainable replacement. And by what standard is society corrupt? For example, look at this UN map of corruption:

traceinternational.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ti-corruption-perception-index-map.jpg


People on the forum, you'll notice, usually seem to come from less corrupt regions.